From Jeff
I received this email yesterday from a DBC church member in response to my below post titled "Why All the Fuss". The response is about the focus of DBC from one who has been attending our church for several years and seen a lot. Thought this might stir some conversation about where some of you are with DBC right now. Feel free to comment....(click the "comment" link at the end of this post)
"Jeff-
The path in Christianity seems to be one Bible study class after another. Studying the Bible is important, but it is not the only thing. Small groups would probably take off better, but no one knows what to do when they get there. It is just one more thing to do.
What if the goal of a small group was to reach your neighborhood? Sure, that is in the goals officially, but does it really happen? No. Talk is cheap. It is easy to put that on a list as attributes and something to do, but it is another to actually do it. To do that, you have to care about the unreached. You have to have a real desire to see people saved. You have to love others.
We are a church. We have people. We have a building. But to many people, the building and those 1, 2, or 3 hours on Sunday is church and fellowship. We don't demand much, we don't get much. We don't encourage much, we don't get much. We don't care much for the lost, few come to Christ. We don't take care of the seeds, we get a bad crop. We don't care about the seeds, because we have all the food we need, and and we don't care if the next season the seeds get planted or not. We have all the grain we need and we spend a lot of time counting our grain, studying our grain, talking about how great our grain is, etc. So we stay where we are.
You have to ask yourself, 'Are we a church of style? or Are we a church of substance?'
The Holy Spirit knows what to do. We just have to ask and be obedient.
I hope I am not too cynical. But, sadly, I don't really go to church to find the encouragement to share my faith. I guess I am going to church because I think I'm supposed to or out of duty.
I know that one shift for me is subtle, but is really indicative of my feelings is what ministries I tithe to. For probably a year I have been moving more and more tithe money to groups like Gospel for Asia and Wycliffe, and such (groups that are reaching the lost...groups that are reaching those where the word of God is not heard).
I have heard every pastor at DBC say that the 10% should go to your home church first and then beyond that to other groups. But, there is a sense that comes to me that I cannot throw money into a dry well. The money needs to go to those who will do something with it. Some day, when I stand in front of God, He will ask me where I put the things He gave me. I can say it went to GFA and 1000's of Hindu's came to know Christ. Or should I say I gave it all to DBC and we built more buildings or we had better decorations, or we had a lot of great retreats. But over the 13 years I have been a member, the church has stayed the same, or shrunk in size. Are my tithes being used wisely? If we were the same size and we had planted 5 churches in that timeframe, then great.
And I will close as KP Yohanan oftens does, with a question, 'Do we really care about those who will die today and go on to a Christless eternity?'
For me, that question is real. That is my whole family.
Sincerely,
DBC Member"
NOTE: Anyone can comment; you don't have to have a blogger account. Just click "comment" below, type your comment and then select anonymous. MAKE SURE TO SIGN YOUR NAME if you want us to know who you are.
What if the goal of a small group was to reach your neighborhood? Sure, that is in the goals officially, but does it really happen? No. Talk is cheap. It is easy to put that on a list as attributes and something to do, but it is another to actually do it. To do that, you have to care about the unreached. You have to have a real desire to see people saved. You have to love others.We are a church. We have people. We have a building. But to many people, the building and those 1, 2, or 3 hours on Sunday is church and fellowship. We don't demand much, we don't get much. We don't encourage much, we don't get much. We don't care much for the lost, few come to Christ. We don't take care of the seeds, we get a bad crop. We don't care about the seeds, because we have all the food we need, and and we don't care if the next season the seeds get planted or not. We have all the grain we need and we spend a lot of time counting our grain, studying our grain, talking about how great our grain is, etc. So we stay where we are.
You have to ask yourself, 'Are we a church of style? or Are we a church of substance?'
The Holy Spirit knows what to do. We just have to ask and be obedient.
I hope I am not too cynical. But, sadly, I don't really go to church to find the encouragement to share my faith. I guess I am going to church because I think I'm supposed to or out of duty.
I know that one shift for me is subtle, but is really indicative of my feelings is what ministries I tithe to. For probably a year I have been moving more and more tithe money to groups like Gospel for Asia and Wycliffe, and such (groups that are reaching the lost...groups that are reaching those where the word of God is not heard).
I have heard every pastor at DBC say that the 10% should go to your home church first and then beyond that to other groups. But, there is a sense that comes to me that I cannot throw money into a dry well. The money needs to go to those who will do something with it. Some day, when I stand in front of God, He will ask me where I put the things He gave me. I can say it went to GFA and 1000's of Hindu's came to know Christ. Or should I say I gave it all to DBC and we built more buildings or we had better decorations, or we had a lot of great retreats. But over the 13 years I have been a member, the church has stayed the same, or shrunk in size. Are my tithes being used wisely? If we were the same size and we had planted 5 churches in that timeframe, then great.
And I will close as KP Yohanan oftens does, with a question, 'Do we really care about those who will die today and go on to a Christless eternity?'
For me, that question is real. That is my whole family.
Sincerely,
DBC Member"
NOTE: Anyone can comment; you don't have to have a blogger account. Just click "comment" below, type your comment and then select anonymous. MAKE SURE TO SIGN YOUR NAME if you want us to know who you are.
6 comments:
Wow. Well said. I share your feelings exactly. Withholding tithe from DBC (or any church) is the fastest (and maybe only) way to cause real change.
But I would ask the author if he ever took time to notify the church office of his decision? Being a member of DBC that participates in the church community brings certain responsibilities (Christian consumerism is another issue entirely). One of those is an interest in the long term growth of the church and a commitment to help fund that. If you don't let the church know the reasoning behind your decision, you aren't doing either of those things, which would indicate that you have no real interest in the growth of the church, so why not just move on to another church that shares your desire to be a better steward?
Obviously you have an interest in the church or you would have done just that.
Think about it for a minute. What would happen to DBC if the majority of tithing members stopped tithing? You would certainly get the attention of the church leadership. Programs would be re-evaluated to see if they served a real and lasting Kingdom purpose. Programs and jobs would be cut. People who count on DBC to put food on the table would be hurt. There is no doubt about it. It would be a painful process.
Would it be worth it? Absolutely. Is there a possibility that the church would splinter? Certainly, but is that necessarily a bad thing? Are the money issues/problems at DBC something that could be fixed with by a concerted effort of concerned DBC members or is the basic church structure dysfunctional?
What I mean by that is that some hard questions need to be asked (by every church, not just DBC). Is everything we do in response to God's leading? Do we start programs that are in response to needs in the community around us that God is prompting us to respond to, or do we take the all too familiar "if we build it, they will come approach?"
Churches are traditionally slow to change. Would it be more responsible to work for change by participating in leadership (most people can't) or working with the church to achieve a level of fiscal responsibility that makes for good stewardship? (In what would likely be a long drawn out process that is painful in it's own way.)
The question basically boils down to one of time. If we are truly concerned about "those who will die today and go on to a Christless eternity?" can we afford to engage in a lengthy institutional process that may or may not come to anything? There are billions of unreached people in the world, many of whom don't have many "todays" left.
That is what stewardship comes down to. That is the real question. Are we doing all that we can with what we have available to help bring the Gospel to those that need it?
Jeremy
I feel right on with that DBC Member. GREAT comments!!
I totally understand how that member feels about tithing. Here’s a thought: on your tithe envelopes, mark the Other box and write in Missions. (That’s what I do because I rather not have more money go towards buildings, retreats, etc.)
I understand how that member feels going Sunday mornings sometimes more out of duty. I would say the same - that it isn’t where I always get my encouragement. However, sometimes I have to prepare myself and be ready to see what God will do. Other times, I need to be prepared that He may use me – maybe with a visitor. There’s a man who has been at the church for decades has said many times - the church is like an emergency room / hospital.
It is sad that society thinks of church more as a building structure than the people. The most memorable Sunday morning church service in America that I’ve been to this year was in St Simons Island. The church I visited held the service in the park next to the water. People brought chairs and blankets. Kids were climbing trees. Birds were chirping. After the service, people opened up the food that they brought and shared with others. There were about 1,000 people. What a time of fellowship! It was great to be out with all of God’s creation – people, nature and animals. I wish there were more Sun Services like that in America. Maybe we could do that at DBC one Sunday in the field????
I understand what Jeff and this member wrote about how the path with Christianity and a typical church is sometimes trying to force people to grow with more studies, programs and things people “ought to do.” We have to remember that God is a creative God. He may have a different plan for each church. I think about some of the battles in the Old Testament - God had a different plan for how things were going to happen. It was creative and unique! Each of our stories with God is unique. Even with relationships, they are each unique. And, each church is unique. What one church does may be best for them, but not for us.
For each person with God, it is listening and talking. I liked how this member mentioned the Holy Spirit. (I really don’t hear much about the Holy Spirit in the church, as a whole.) Are we really listening to what God has placed in our hearts?
I also liked Jeremy’s comments, especially about stewardship – if we are doing what we can with what we have available to help bring the Gospel to others. Concerning money, all of it is God’s, not just the 10%. God has some money funneled thru me. It’s God’s money that I use for food, car, clothes, ministries, gifts, utilities, rent etc. It also is everything I own. Am I using my home for others? Am I using my car to help drive others? Do I have something not in use that someone else would need to use? I think of stewardship as my time too, as well as my gifts and talents. What about my words? Do I use them to encourage others?
Sometimes even with my prayers I think to myself: Have I just spent more time on praying for people with a sickness that I know who will be in heaven than with people whose souls may not be in heaven?
Amanda
Amen, Amanda. I loved your thoughts on God owning 100% of our stuff. We get hung up on what's happening with the 10% and don't think a bit about what is happenning with the other 90%, much less our time and property.
Love the comments. We must remember that we all read Scripture through a lens. If we think 'evangelism' is the main thing for us, then we will see it on every page of the New Testament. If we think 'fellowship' is the thing, then we will see that. If we think spiritual growth, then that. On and on and on.
This does not lessen the importance of evangelism. It only suggests that the desire to evangelize and see people come to Jesus is not the goal, but a byproduct of something else - knowing Christ. If we are not spreading the gospel,it is because we have a problem in our relationship with Jesus. As he is formed in us, we are to have his desires.
The NT placed more emphasis on being a disciple of Jesus than it did on any particular work or gifting of the church - ie fellowship, evangelism, prophecy, etc. I guess you could say the church not only has a message, the church is the message.
The original message made an important point about how we give. We say a lot by our tithing. There is a lot of designated money at DBC . People obviously want to give according to their passions.
I personally like to designate my funds to "Jeff's salary" because i think he is such a great guy.
Great thought Amanda on everything being God's. Way too often we get caught up on spending 'our' 90% (or more) after we (sometimes grudgingly) give God 'His' 10% of the money 'we earned.'
I think what the DBC member was saying (and Jeff in his original post) is not that people are seeing what is most important to them in Scripture and acting on that and that he is upset that it isn't evangelism, but rather that they are not growing so they are not acting at all. The church as a whole is basically content with where it is.
Jeff talks about a pastor in South America who travels for days to reach a training session on the Bible (He may have said hours, but I think it was days, and days sounds way cooler, so days it is). Not too many of us would travel to even just the other side of Atlanta for that.
It's a problem that is epidemic in mainstream churches these days. Programs and classes and fancy services and expensive new buildings are bringing people in, but they are failing to grow them. That is the problem that most churches are facing today. Christians are consuming more and more resources, yet there appears to be a disconnect from those resources and actual affect/change (or is it effect?) on their lives.
I doubt the DBC member is actually upset that DBC has nice buildings and decorations and programs(I actually think the retreats are paid for by the people attending and not the church). What he is upset about is that it doesn't seem to be making a real life change on many people. It's kind of a spiritual "bang for your buck" kind of deal. Why continue to financially support something that is not working? If he felt that DBC was producing strong disciples and really growing people he wouldn't care about the buildings and such.
It goes back to Jeff's story about the South American pastor who traveled so far (and having traveled a decent bit south of the border I can tell you it was a rough journey). There is a real thirst for God. Many times we seem to (myself included) lose that thirst today. Maybe all of the things that we do or read take the place of intimacy with God in our lives?
Obviously I am talking in broad terms here. I know that not everyone is content where they are or that absolutely everyone isn't thirsty. So don't get too upset reading this if you think I am unfairly calling you out.
But lets face it. The Christian church would not be on the decline that it is on today if more Christians were committed to being "fully devoted followers of Christ." Of course knowing the problem and fixing the problem are two different things!
Ahhhh...fixing the problem. Yeah. It doesn't take much to see something is wrong. But, to fix it.What does that require? Do we have the courage?
As for the fancy services and such...someone once said, "What you draw them WITH is what you draw them TO." That's a hard pill to swallow for folks who think they get paid to draw people artificially. That's not to say we can't use fancy sound systems and such, it's just that Jesus would probably say we are at a disadvantage for doing so - ie. we might become dependant on them.
I see it as a move of the Spirit. People see this differently, but is God the source of our thirst or is it something we can conjure up?
Seems to me that through a variety of means we try to gin up thirst in people - which usually results in a limited emotional response with little long range change.
What if we are not "fully devoted" until we are "fully reproducing?" What if we don't become disciples until we have the desire to make more disciples? What if the "Great Commission" - which would be a strange term to the orignial hearers - was as much a part of their discipleship as anything else?
This might suggest a destination, a vision for us to operate with at DBC. Multiplication. Passing it on. Not just consuming.
Just a thought. WhenI hear about how the church is exploding in China, how house churches are rapidly multiplying in other countries, my heart sinks a little because I am reminded how sterile my faith and experience of church generally is. It doesn't reproduce. I am glad to know God is moving in other places. I believe He is moving here too...calling to us.
I have to agree with the original email...sometimes it is very hard for me to worship or even attend church on Sundays. It feels like work. Well, at least I'm paid to be there. I love the people. I love worshipping God. But, something is missing. A calling. A challenge. A big story. Yet, I find myself revitalized for mondays. The story comes back to mind and I am excited about my work in the world and how it is aiding the spread of the gospel. Why is that?
If we want change we must realize if the system is broken...WE ARE THE SYSTEM. Change starts with the person who sees the need for it. It's not that something is missing on Sundays - though it might be- rather, it is missing in me. Passion is contagious. A desire to spread God's message is contagious too, if not convicting and humbling first.
Great conversation! Thank you all for commenting. keep em coming.
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